BABCP Response - NICE Consultation January 2022

NHS Talking Therapies Both Judge and Jury On Recovery

Would you invest in a company simply on the basis of its proclaimed profits? But that is exactly what successive governments have done every year, for the past fifteen years. At a cost of £752 million in the year 2021 for adult Mental Health Services, £922 million on child and adolescent mental health (excluding funding for eating disorders £73 million). Making a grand total of £1.75 billion [Figures from the National Audit Office (NAO ) Report of February 2023] for 2021-2022. The NAO  re-iterates, uncritically, IAPT’s claim of a 50% recovery rate for the Adult mental health service, neglecting to say that there has been no independent verification of this. Further there is not even a claim to the effectiveness of Child and Adolescent Mental Health services!

The NAO  is unphazed by the haemorrhaging of clients from the NHS Talking therapies for Adults. It notes, without comment, that  46% of its clientele drop out before treatment, were treatment is  defined as attending 2 or more treatment sessions. So that the much vaunted 50% recovery rate, applies only to those who complete treatment! 

My own work Scott (2018) on 90 clients going through NHS Talking Therapies predecessor IAPT, was that only the tip of the iceberg recovered.

Dr Mike Scott

6 replies on “NHS Talking Therapies Both Judge and Jury On Recovery”

I think if a person has debt problems they are best advised to see a Debt Counsellor via a Citizen’Advice Bureaux. There is no evidence that NHS Talking Therapies has an added value with regard to mental health over that achieved by attendance at the CABx. D’Arcy’s work is unfortunately based on NHS Talking Therapies, much vaunted claim of a 50% recovery rate. But as my posts have shown this is clearly not the case. Thus his conclusions about cost savings by focusing on client’s financial difficulties are unfounded – a superstructure built on an insecure foundation.
PWPs are already very stressed by the ritual completion of psychometric tests at each appointment, leaving them little time for therapy. I would imagine suggesting that they ask additional financial questions will go down like a lead balloon.
I don’t doubt there is a need for a holistic assessment of clients problems, but this is not possible under the framework set for PWPs.

Evening Mike
I’ve shared your work for several years I know you’re not fond of Social Media but your work is well known the issues with IAPT – Since they’re so ignorant (Or choosing the Status Quo) it would be difficult to ignore if they were confronted with the truth something I do all that all the time. I had horrible experiences with IAPT – My GP ignored their report that IAPT wasn’t appropriate for ‘Suicidal Ideation’ his response was to send me back to IAPT – He tried to send me to MIND which he didn’t seem aware only offer IAPT CBT or the numbers of ex Counsellors – He told me to my face ‘There is no such thing as Counselling anymore – Offered me two anti-depressants Amitriptyline which had caused iatrogenic harm after decades of taking it – I now have life threatening heart damage it should only be taken for 9 months because it damages the heart. The other he offered was one I’d tried to kill myself with in my 30’s both of these facts were written openly in the prescription he wrote. I was in shock couldn’t respond it triggered my PTSD – Everything I’ve learned and understood from your work over the years helped give me strength that one day the truth would out and I do everything I can to bring that about in my own way. In this instance felt you should have the opportunity to see what ‘They’ are saying and if you felt it worthwhile to respond to it .. My experiences have often mirrored issues you’ve brought to light obviously I’m not alone just wanted to share
Kind regards

Liz you are absolutely right the state of play is dire. But if u think there is anything I can help u with backchannel don’t hesitate to make contact. I really don’t do personal attacks or scoring points so Ive never had enthusiasm for social media, although some people use it extremely well and positively. Also not technologically savvy, or into power or politics with a small ‘p’. In many ways I’m probably not the best person to advance the sort of case I make. At times I despair of the lack of open debate, it is like being part of a totalitarian state. Take good care Mike

.. It’s not about attacking it’s about informing which is what you do on a daily basis I’ve always believed (And shown it to be true for me) that I put out vast amounts of information on a wide range of subjects. My followers know where I stand I must be doing something right I’ve been on twitter for more than a decade they won’t let me have 5,000 followers so I must be doing something right 🙂 I’m well aware of your social media phobia 🙂 I contacted you many years ago and offered to moderate your twitter feed you declined. I’m very good at modding I’ve run a recycling/reuse online group for 14yrs with over 12,000 members in just one of my 5 groups in and around London

It will be very difficult for you to advance your case if you don’t connect with people to have that ‘Open debate’ Mike it might be said you don’t have confidence in your work rather than you not having confidence in yourself .. Have you ever considered having a partner/colleague who knows and understand your work and enjoys social media/tech could be the ‘Front’ – It’s not something I could do but but your work is incredibly valuable and you might be surprised how much people appreciate your work ..

It’s not ‘Like’ a totalitarian state it’s a Disaster Capitalist feeding Vulture Capitalist state and it’s global we are dealing with narcissists We can’t expect them to have empathy or compassion and we don’t need to ‘Educate’ the powers that be they created it that way. But still I push out the truth someone recently asked if I wasn’t afraid to say/share what I do I asked why she said ‘They could get to you’ cause you harm. I said they’ve already done that what else can they do? Kill me?? I’m already dying .. So now I stand up and get counted – and I share everything

I’m grateful for your kind words and for the opportunity to connect with you although its difficult to know what to talk about writing isn’t easy for me sometimes I get away with it but often my eyesight goes with Vestibular Migraine attacks it’s a bit of a mare but it stops me in my tracks but I can talk the hind legs off a donkey when motivated but also know how to listen I do hope we can figure it out. 🙂
Kind regards

I know somebody who reported a member of staff and yet did not want to hear their reply. In the end they did and agreed it was good to be able to reflect and see the beast they were dealing with (or not) and on this occassion could use this awareness in her future career.

I am keen to bring in body work to the NHS to balance the voice with the expression of the body. I am not sure how to start. This could diffuse the single talking use + EMDR and few other options but no rich body therapy (in my case craniosacral).

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